in general the culture of bashing “women against feminism” is super toxic. even though they ARE wrong and I don’t support their premise at all, we should probably focus our anger on the chauvinistic males who propagate patriarchal thought and not on women who suffer from it without realizing it????
Your patronising attitude is not appreciated. I, along with many, dare I say most women against feminism were not tricked by evil men. We’ve looked at feminism and decided, no, we do not want to be a part of this.
I’ll take someone bashing me over that over you, who treats me like a little child under the guise of “protecting me”.
I don’t think you read my post carefully enough. I was advocating against this patronizing attitude. See this post for clarification.
If I did come off as patronizing, I’m truly sorry; that was not my intention. I was establishing my own opinion about feminism, not trying to force other women to be feminists.I am
Really? You advocate against patronising by being patronising while denying you’re patronising?
You can’t see that you’re essentially saying that I must be brainwahsed by men if I am against feminism?
Oh, certainly, you said that women should not be attacked for it. Yet on the same breath, you say that the only possible reason a woman could be against feminism is internalised misogyny or what-have-you. And as I have said- I will take an honest person attacking me for it over the likes of you, who treat me like a child, anytime.
Right, but my belief that you’re “brainwashed” (as you refer to it) is a function of my belief in feminism; it’s not in any way an estimation of you as a person. You, likewise, probably think I’m brainwashed. It has nothing to do with me thinking you’re a child.
You do, however, imply that I don’t have the brain to think for myself, that my choice to reject feminism is a direct cause of living in the patriarchy and nothing else. Which, even if you don’t realise it, puts me on the same level as a child who indeed doesn’t have the brain to do that yet.
Nope. I put you on the level of a fully functioning human who is unfortunately hindered by a societal fault and is unaware of such an influence. You believe that the influence does not exist. By necessity, a priori, I need to see you as being unaware of a patriarchy, so that I can believe in the patriarchy itself. But I do not need to see you as “dumb” or “a child,” and because I don’t need to, I don’t. I believe one thing; you believe something else.
In short: while believing someone to be unaware of something may often IMPLY that you believe them to be a child, it does not necessitate it. I don’t think women who don’t believe in feminism are “brainwashed,” and I don’t feel the need or desire to treat them as children, as this post was trying to establish in the first place. Yes, I necessarily see you as misguided in not recognizing the role that a patriarchal system may play in your life, but I don’t condemn you for your choice not to recognize it. Indeed, doing so would be against feminist thought. I have an opinion; so do you. There’s nothing wrong with that.
You say you don’t want to treat me like a child.
And then every single word you utter is patronising. There’s a huge disconnect between what you claim to say and what you are saying and you can’t even see it.
I appreciate you accepting that my opinion differs from you, and I’m not accusing you of intentionally belittling women against feminism, but the fact remains is that that is how you will inevitably come across when you say they are nothing but misguided.
I could technically claim the same of you: by your definition of patronizing, are you not patronizing me by claiming that I am wrong and misguided, as I claim that you are wrong and misguided?
The definition of patronizing behavior isn’t to disagree, it’s to condescend. Disagreeing (and by extension, viewing the other person as misguided - which you kind of have to do in order to disagree), isn’t the same as patronizing. If I’ve established that I respect you, then I’m not patronizing you. I’m viewing your opinion is wrong, a right that is as much mine as it is yours.
It’s not so much that you think me being misguided and wrong. I can deal with that; as you said, I think the same about you, so we’re even.
The problem I have is that you see to think I am wrong not by my own choice, but by “the patriarchy’s influence”. What I’ve gleaned of what you said is that you’re implying that I must be antifeminist because I’ve been duped by the patriarchy. Which I assure you is certainly not the case.
If that’s not what you meant to imply, then I apologise for misunderstanding. It is what you come across as, though.
Not so much that you were duped as that you cannot see its effects on your life. The patriarchy didn’t directly “cause” your opinion, necessarily (though in some cases I think it does cause these opinions, like when people hear others calling feminists “feminazis” and then automatically decide to join the antifeminist movement), but it did indirectly cause it, in that you are not aware of the effects that the patriarchy has on your daily life, therefore leading you to conclude that antifeminism is a correct social outlook and philosophy.
You, by necessity, have to see me as undergoing a similar process: according to your viewpoint, I see a fictitious force in the actions of men, leading me to incorrectly conclude that feminism is a correct philosophy.
We both believe each other to be “duped” as you define it. But that’s literally a function of the opinion itself, not of any patronizing attitude on either of our parts.
Then I may have slightly misinterpreted what you’ve said. My apologies.